Curse

shirosae · Jun 02, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Isn't half of the PvP problems with Paragon due to how ridiculous some Finales get with mass shouting?

If that is the case (it might be, i don't PvP much, and other people here have far greater insight than I), wouldn't it be easier to Spirit Bond the Finales in question? If a single Paragon and a Warrior or whatever with a few shouts can keep up Finales for full duration, but a full team of shouting Paragons wear them out in a few seconds, wouldn't that balance things?

Perhaps adding a timer, Soul Reaping-like to Finales?

I suppose that might damage the all Paragon PvE teams, maybe (i don't know the build off the top of my head). Unless some PvP-worthless skills were buffed to provide alternatives?

I don't think limiting the number of professions in any group is the way to go.

Xunlai Agent Smith · Jun 02, 2007, 11:50 AM // 11:50

/notsigned

Paragon teams are broke but this cannot be the answer

Evilsod · Jun 02, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

because claw you basically are saying kill strategy all together in Ha and GvG so that only balanced is possible and no more thinking of good builds that are fun... so pvp would turn into pve and all pvp players would quit GW right then and there... i know i would

yea no that is still a horrible idea. like i always say think about what your saying think.

You do realise that those 'stratagies' are causing the Paragon to have its entire skilllist nerfed into oblivion right? I would much rather have some sort of drastic measure put into place to curb the insane nerfing of a Paragons skill list than have a char completely and utterly useless. They're suppose to be leaders, they're getting nerfed so badly the only way to make them useful is to have them in a team with 3+ other 'leaders'.

Why did i get the feeling half the comments would be 'zomg nerf all classes' comments. Show me a class that is having its entire skill list reworked to avoid builds that sync when you have 4+ of them? Searing Flames is the only skill i can think of and that is a single skill, not an entire profession.

Quote:

Fix the skills that are causing the imbalance, don't ignore it and place arbritrary restrictions on the game.

They have. Taken a look at the 'Least Favourite Class' poll, guess which is top. They've 'fixed' the skills so much that they an't be used effectively anymore. The last possible use for a Paragon now is to just give General Morgahn a load of Motivation skills that are just too boring for a real paragon to use when it comes to PvE.

Wildi · Jun 02, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Hows this?

Idea:Diminishing return on effects in multiple paragon parties.

Basically.....The more Paragon primaries in a party, the less effective (duration and amount heal/protected/etc) the effects of shouts/chants/echos on those paragons and the other party members

1 Paragon in party:
Paragon and Party gets 100% effect

2 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
THe other paragon gets only 85% effect from Paragon 1.

3 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
The other 2 paragons gain only 65% effect from Paragon 1

4 Paragons in party:
The Paragon get 100% effect.
The other 3 paragons gain only 30% effect from paragon 1

and so on and so forth.

I think this is a good idea

Dr.Agon · Jun 02, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

I don't think this would work, they would just go secondary para and use the same principle. Probably the best idea I've seen in this thread is being able to remove shouts and chants, though I don't see Anet adding skills before GWEN, so I don't think thats going t happen soon.

But a few of you are missing the point of his post, he wants to save the paragon class, not keep them out because he can't kill them in HA.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

You do realise that those 'stratagies' are causing the Paragon to have its entire skilllist nerfed into oblivion right?

that is why what i suggested before is smart. MAKE A WAY TO STOP SHOUTS AND CHANTS then paragons wont be nerfed cause then they aint broken.

i say add effects like a few concept skills i suggested

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

Sonic Boom(Air Magic)
spell
5E, 1 cast, 20 recharge.

Target foe and all other foes in earshot take 5...25 damage and are unaffected by shouts and chants for 5...20 seconds.

*comments: ok this on is easy to figure out, you make loud bang noise which hurts their ears and temporarly deafens you ^^*

Deafening Battle Roar(command)
Shout
5E, 60 recharge

all allies in earshot attack 5...25% faster and move 5...25% faster for 5...20 seconds but are unaffected by shouts and chants for 30...15 seconds.

*comments: kinda self explanatory ^^*

i know one is a paragon skill itself but i think we just need a new condition deafened. with this condition you are unaffected by shouts and chants.... this is good and bad, bad is obvious but good is that fear me and such dont effect you either lol. but many conditons have a good and bad like deep wound is great for 55ers and blind is good for sandsharders.

Slotter · Jun 02, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

This will never happen. Stupid idea....

Evilsod · Jun 02, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

that is why what i suggested before is smart. MAKE A WAY TO STOP SHOUTS AND CHANTS then paragons wont be nerfed cause then they aint broken.

i say add effects like a few concept skills i suggested

I've already wondered if they could add clauses to Paragon skills that cause them to recharge on other Paragons in the team or other things like that to stop massive abuse from stacking. But i don't see that happening. They already have Vocal Minority. Adding more won't make any difference. You can't just say somethings balanced because there are a minute number of ways to stop it, that basically means EVERYONE must bring said counters in order to defeat said build. Which i would guess would lead to 1 hell of a boring metagame. Ensign already complains about been forced to bring large condition removal to sort out things like BHA/Cripslash. I really don't see how everyone been forced to bring counters to shouts would make things anymore fun.

Quote:

i know one is a paragon skill itself but i think we just need a new condition deafened. with this condition you are unaffected by shouts and chants.... this is good and bad, bad is obvious but good is that fear me and such dont effect you either lol. but many conditons have a good and bad like deep wound is great for 55ers and blind is good for sandsharders.

I can't see such a condition been worked in, its too specific and again would practically force people into taking it. Unless you get something in the form of a Ranger Spirit that completely stops shouts in a radius or affects there duration i can't really see there been a solution. But even then that just brings things down to having a Spirit Spammer on hand...

The only thing they can do is do something to the paragon itself. Be it preventing too many, introducing deactivations on skills or decreasing there effectiveness with multiple paragons. Adding more counters wouldn't stop the skills been abused, it would just make things stale.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

hum last time i checked spikes bring enchant removal to SPECIFICALLY TARGET PROT MONKS and no one complains, how is this in any way differnt at all.

also the condition is not to specific.... hum blind only stops attacks, thats a bit specific, daze only stops SPELL casts, also specific. hell deep wound only stops heals. cause you gotta relize not only paragons use shouts, so do warriors and rangers *of course ranger shouts affect pets but still* so its not too specific.

Evilsod · Jun 02, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

I knew your reply would be a smart arsed dig at 'specific' involving Blind and Dazed. Last i checked Blind affected all 4 attack based professions and Dazed affected the 8 professions that rely on spells, hexes and enchantments. Such a condition would effect... the Paragon... and a few Warrior skills.

KebabVan · Jun 02, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Replicant

/notsigned

if you limit the amount of Paragons all other classes would have to go through the same limit.

Why? several people said it but why must limiting paragons to one per team mean that everything else has to be limited to? Anet make the rules, its not as if theres some general kind of divine law that says you do it to one you do it to all. In Guild Wars - Anet is God. Theres even a valid in game explanation - paragons are meant to be leaders, how does having 5 leaders leading 3 monks represent this?

The problem with paragons is completely different to everything else. With other gimmick builds such as 5 searing flames, it's a skill that is the problem, not the whole elementalist class.

IMO they should do the same thing they did to soul reaping to nerf the 8 n/rt build. There is a precedent for changing primary attribute now - soul reaping and critical strikes have both recently been changed.

-----------------------------------
2 possibilities:

1. Change leadership so that it only gives energy once every 10 seconds or something. This means you can still carry lotsa shouts and chants but you will run outa energy pretty quick if you spam them. One paragon with 2 chants and a shout isnt going to be affected much, but the added affect of a whole team having to use their shouts/chants wisely will be.

2. No energy is gained for using a chant if already under the effects of a chant and no energy gained from a shout if under the effect of another shout. This would kill it harder than the first one. Would mean the only effective thing is to have 1 paragon with about 3 different shouts/chants. Anymore than 1 and they are going to have to have very few shouts and chants if they want energy.

---------------------------------

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

yes but i see you did not try to debate my statement that people already bring skills that disable certain builds or classes, so even if they didn't add that condition they could still add skills that did that effect. it would solve the problem and you know it, cause enchants arnt being nerfed and you know why.... its cause they can be stopped..... thats it.

Mr_Cynical · Jun 02, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

/signed

If it means that the Paragon nerfs (ridiculously overdone, even by Anet's standards) get reversed, I'm all for it.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by KebabVan

Why? several people said it but why must limiting paragons to one per team mean that everything else has to be limited to? Anet make the rules, its not as if theres some general kind of divine law that says you do it to one you do it to all. In Guild Wars - Anet is God. Theres even a valid in game explanation - paragons are meant to be leaders, how does having 5 leaders leading 3 monks represent this?

The problem with paragons is completely different to everything else. With other gimmick builds such as 5 searing flames, it's a skill that is the problem, not the whole elementalist class.

IMO they should do the same thing they did to soul reaping to nerf the 8 n/rt build. There is a precedent for changing primary attribute now - soul reaping and critical strikes have both recently been changed.

-----------------------------------
2 possibilities:

1. Change leadership so that it only gives energy once every 10 seconds or something. This means you can still carry lotsa shouts and chants but you will run outa energy pretty quick if you spam them. One paragon with 2 chants and a shout isnt going to be affected much, but the added affect of a whole team having to use their shouts/chants wisely will be.

2. No energy is gained for using a chant if already under the effects of a chant and no energy gained from a shout if under the effect of another shout. This would kill it harder than the first one. Would mean the only effective thing is to have 1 paragon with about 3 different shouts/chants. Anymore than 1 and they are going to have to have very few shouts and chants if they want energy.

---------------------------------

so what your is that the horrible travesty against necs should be REPEATED.

no no no your idea is even WORSE then op, cause pve paragons would FURTHER suffer and the point of this topic is to fix them NOT DESTROY THEM.

and also your thoughts on the paragon being the only one needed to be limited.... hum anet may be god but if they just limit paragons the paragons will go up in an uproar and if they dont restrict the others too then all the paragons, then to stop this anet would need to limit the others classes too and then EVEN MORE people will get up and leave gw and that is something we want to avoid at all costs.

no the correct solution is not something drastic but something simple, simple yet effective....

KebabVan · Jun 02, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lydz

/notsigned

I can see it now: Limit the number of eles in a team! Too much damage! OR No more than 2 monks please! Too much healing!

I'm sorry but that's just pointless. There are many other ways to deal with problems like this.

See you have put exactly why neither elementalist or monks need to be limited in number. 5 pure dmg elementalists in a team do lots of damage but have no defense (eg searing flames) and so providing the other team can hold out against the damage for a short while, they can kill the eles easily. Same goes for monks - if you have loads of monks they can stop stuff dying but they cant kill anything. if you try and put good amounts of damage and defense on either an ele or monk you get poor amounts of both. Just look at the stupid earth tanks in RA, they are hard to kill without interrupts or enchant removal but they do barely any damage at all.

On the other hand 5 paragons have both tons of damage AND tons of defense which is what makes it so hard to beat. Teams can split off 3/4 attackers but the para team can keep the flagger back and send back a monk and even with 1 monk only, the main team wont take any deaths due to the huge defense. They kill the enemy lord before the enemy split can even kill the knights.

It was the same for rit spike and the n/rt sb/ri spike. Both had huge amounts of both defense and attack which meant not even splitting would damage their ability to win. Both of those got nerfed.

KebabVan · Jun 02, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

so what your is that the horrible travesty against necs should be REPEATED.

no no no your idea is even WORSE then op, cause pve paragons would FURTHER suffer and the point of this topic is to fix them NOT DESTROY THEM.

and also your thoughts on the paragon being the only one needed to be limited.... hum anet may be god but if they just limit paragons the paragons will go up in an uproar and if they dont restrict the others too then all the paragons, then to stop this anet would need to limit the others classes too and then EVEN MORE people will get up and leave gw and that is something we want to avoid at all costs.

no the correct solution is not something drastic but something simple, simple yet effective....

Um no. First of all no one is a "insert class" only. People play many different characters and professions, wow para got nerfed what a biggy lets play something else (if it got nerfed to the ground).

Secondly how was it a traversty to the necros? They are still just as good in pve, its not like they counted on 2+ deaths per 5 seconds to be good. They are also still as good in PvP, just look at one of the most common builds that has been around for last couple of months in GvG- 2 melee, 1 mes, 1 NECRO, 1 ranger, 2 monks, runner.

You can still run more than one paragon, PvE or PvP. They just have to synergise the number of energy shouts/chants they use and the number of them which are adren and which are energy. I mean you could take 3 paragons in focussed on dps but with a shout or chant or 2 each in PvE and that's fine.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

hum really all monks have no damage.... hum i seems to remember a certain spike that hurts hum oh yea there is like 6!!!

here is a list of ow

[skill]signet of mystic wrath[/skill]ow
[skill]signet of judgment[/skill]+[skill]holy strike[/skill] yup ow
[skill]balthazar's aura[/skill] yup ow
[skill]air of enchantment[/skill]+[skill]zealot's fire[/skill]+[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] still ow

now please check your facts

KebabVan · Jun 02, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

hum really all monks have no damage.... hum i seems to remember a certain spike that hurts hum oh yea there is like 6!!!

here is a list of ow

[skill]signet of mystic wrath[/skill]ow
[skill]signet of judgment[/skill]+[skill]soulstone strike[/skill] yup ow
[skill]balthazars aura[/skill] yup ow
[skill]air of enchantment[/skill]+[skill]zealous fire[/skill]+[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] still ow

now please check your facts

If you read what i posted you will see that i said if either eles or monks try and both do damage and go defensive they end up doing neither to an overpowering degree. Obviously you can have smite monks to do damage but then they do barely any healing. You can have eles all secondary monk with tons of earth wards and earth armour + heal party/aegis etc but they wouldnt be doing any damage would they. You completely missed the point.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by KebabVan

If you read what i posted you will see that i said if either eles or monks try and both do damage and go defensive they end up doing neither to an overpowering degree. Obviously you can have smite monks to do damage but then they do barely any healing. You can have eles all secondary monk with tons of earth wards and earth armour + heal party/aegis etc but they wouldnt be doing any damage would they. You completely missed the point.

hum i seem to remember that sig o mystic wrath spikes have INSANE healing, dual smite can heal like a bastard too due to the high amount in prot, balth aura only takes 1 slot so you can still heal....... yup once again not a valid point

Evilsod · Jun 02, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

This thread has nothing to do with whether monks can smite of not...